A story on how a decade of work turned a forgotten 350 ss Camaro into the car dubbed “396maro”.

Procuring the Camaro

The original restoration for the car took place from 2009 to 2013. Back in 2009, couldn’t even drive since I was 14 at the time, my father and I began looking around for some classic car to restore. I originally had my mind set on a fastback Mustang but couldn’t find anything reasonable. We stumbled upon a 1968 Camaro that was kept outside, albeit, under a carport. The car was in decent shape for what was at the time a 40-year-ol.d However it showed its age in the form of rust in the fenders and some good chunks of body filler. The Camaro was mostly complete but didn’t run. The reason I even considered the car was because it was blue with white racing stripes (although later all the paint gets striped anyway).

The car was advertised as being a factory 350 SS car, but the car was missing the original engine and being that I wasn’t the Camaro aficionado then as I am now, I really had no clue how to verify that claim or what it even really meant. Since not all of the original powertrain was accounted for, I figured this would be a good project to begin to make my own. We talked the seller down to around $9500 and loaded the car up to put it in the garage.

The start of the restoration

Progress was slow in the beginning for the restoration due to a lack of interest and mechanical prowess. For the first two years of its restoration, all I really managed to do was clean up grease, pull out all the interior, replace the front suspension with new tubular control arms and springs, and outfit the car with new coil springs and leafsprings. We ended up moving shortly thereafter. Once I got the car to the point where it could roll around again, we took it to a local auto paint and body shop to fix all of the exterior sheet metal.

At this point the toll that time took on the Camaro was clear. While no new skins where installed, there was a good bit of cutting and grafting in metal especially in the rear quarters, doors, and trunk. The car stayed at the paint and body shop for around half a year while the sheet metal was getting fixed and body getting prepped for paint.

I decided that I wanted to paint the car silver with grey stripes like a familiar mustang from a car movie, thinking back to the fastback I originally wanted. The paint codes for the car came from wheel paint colors for the 2012 Corvette which were Sparkle Silver and Gunmetal Grey.

Back from paint

At this point it’s around Summer of 2012 and my goal for the car became finishing it before highschool graduation in Spring of 2013. I opted to keep the original powertrain which included an M20 muncie and a Chevy 12 bolt rear, but needed to get a sound engine. Once we got the car back to the house we began putting all of the interior back together. This included using A/C insulation tape as sound deadening rather than buy dynamat. We installed a new wiring harness from painless wire and reused the interior that came with the car.

We picked up a 2 bolt main small block from a friend who at the time was going to do an LS swap. The engine was lime green and would very much clash with the theme of the car. I went to town with a wire brush and scotchbright to get rid of the green so that the engine could be painted black. Motivation increased once all of the pieces started to come together. Once the engine was all buttoned up with new valve covers, timing cover, and oil pan, I became determined to install the engine and transmission that same day even if that meant stabbing in the engine and trans at night.

Finishing the restoration

Now its February of 2013 and there’s 3 months left of high school; however, things are on the down hill slope. With the engine in, all the other items are thrown together in the engine bay such as the accessory drive, vacuum brakes, fuel system, and cooling system. We finally finished the restoration in April of 2013. I was able to show off the 4 years of work I had put in to an old classic car. It wasn’t fast by any means with the iron headed two bolt main small block, but it was cool.

The trunk was left alone throughout the restoration, but it needed to be nice since we planned on taking the car to a carshow. We bought a box and put two 12” Rockford subs with some basic amps and closed in the trunk area just to finish the car off.

Research into the car’s past

The lack of consistency in cowl tag markings made it difficult to verify what the trim level was from the factory for some first gen Camaros. The 67 model had unique markings on the tag that could be used to identify actual ss cars, but this is not the case for the 68 model. In fact, there is no information on the cowl tag for 68’s that points to the trim. The same is true for some 69 model cars as well. Because of this, I wasn’t sure how to find out whether or not the car was a true ss. The M20 4-speed had the partial vin stamped on it, so I knew that the transmission belonged to the car.

There is some confusion over what the M20, M21, and M22 designations mean for these old 4-speeds. These codes don’t directly represent the transmission, but rather the gear set inside them. The M20 refers to a wide ratio gear set used in ss cars among others, the M21 close ratio gear set was used in z28s, and the M22 gear set, which featured straight cut gears, was paired with big block cars. Hence, you could have an M20 Saginaw, or an M20 Muncie. The difference between the two is that a Saginaw has an iron case, and a Muncie has an Aluminum case. All Muncies came with ss cars, and all 4-speed manual ss cars came with Munices. Therefore, if a 68 comes with an aluminum 4-speed, and the partial vin matches, it is an ss car.

The beginning of a protouring car

In fall of 2015 I began to really think about how I wanted the car to look. Seeing all of these protouring and restomod cars on auctions like Barret-Jackson or seeing them in person made me envious and motivated me to turn the Camaro into a one off custom. Late 2015 I began gathering parts to build an engine designed to handle abuse. There were some major constraints however. I wanted to reuse the accessory drive I had which means I needed to build a gen 1 small block, and I wanted to keep it a manual transmission. To add a bit of uniqueness to the engine build, I opted to go with a Dart SHP block with a 4.030×3.875 bore and stroke which makes a 396 small block. Cylinder heads are RHS proaction 235 aluminum heads paired with a custom comp cam.

Once the engine was fully assembled around Spring of 2016, I had the engine dyno’d on an engine bench where it made 550hp and 500ft-lb of torque. The factory 4-speed Muncie would be short lived in its new environment. I then needed to investigate what manual transmissions are more capable than the factory M20 Muncie. I landed on the Tremec T56 magnum which was more than capable of handling a meager 500 ft-lbs. This was also the decision that solidified the protouring/restomod theme. Now that the car had a beefier engine, it was time to remove the dinky 2.5” h pipe with super 44 mufflers for a stouter 3” x pipe with outlaw race mufflers. I decided to also remove the front bumper permanently for a smoother look. The car stayed like this until Summer of 2018.

No more monster truck Camaro

The next stage was to remove the 5” of fender gap. I did this by installing drop spindles and leaf-springs although the drop leaf-springs were quickly taken off to prepare for DSE mintubs, a 4-link from heidts, and a currie 9” rearend. After the car was dropped thanks to some adjustable coilovers, I pulled all the trim off the exterior of the car to be powdercoated.

In Fall of 2018, I found the tires I wanted to run which were 275/35/18s and 325/30/19s. Being that this would require expensive, custom three-piece wheels, I wanted to be sure that I was only buying a set of wheels once, and that they fit perfectly. To do so, a specialty tool was required. I used a wheel fitment tool that simulates a wheel allowing one to mount their tire and change wheel dimensions. With the rearend narrowed 2”, and with the smaller steering arms from ridetech, I was able to determine that an 18×9.5 on a 5.675 b.s. and a 19×11.5 on a 5.5 b.s. were needed to fit in the center of the wheel tubs. I spent some time on what wheels I wanted and ended up choosing Nighttrains by Rushforth wheels. Fall of 2018 rolls around, and while waiting on wheels getting built, I then took the down time to upgrade the brakes by going with some Wilwood big brake kits. One issue that manifested itself after the new engine build was that the vacuum assist brakes no longer worked. The solution to this was to swap to manual brakes. Manual brakes can be just as responsive as assist brakes when the components are sized correctly, mainly the bore size of the master cylinder and the pedal ratio.

Transition to Protouring

Once the brakes were updated other issues with the car were tackled. When I originally did the 6-speed swap there was a lot of controversy on whether the trans tunnel has to be chopped up to make the swap work. The reality is that doing a Tremec T56 swap will physically fit without cutting up the tunnel but doing so will push the driveline angle down to nearly 6 degrees in my case and caused driveline vibrations. The fix was cutting up the trans tunnel so that the 6 speed could fit higher in the tunnel. Once the tunnel was cut, I was able to get the driveline angle to nearly 2 degrees and lost the vibration. The saying that a set of wheels and tires can change the entire look of vehicle couldn’t be any truer. Wheels showed up in Spring of 2019 and the look of the car completely transformed. Even with the DSE mintubs and steering arms from ridetech, I had to chop and beat up the fender lips with cutoff wheels and mallets. For the rear wheel and tire combo to fit, I needed to chop off quite a bit of fender lip leaving only half an inch of lip, which is a tricky task on a painted car.

Handling nightmare

Cutting and beating the fenders gave me quite a bit of clearance in the rear, but I delt with a bit of rubbing on the frame and inner fenders for the front. Come to find out the tubular control arms I originally selected did not have any advancement in suspension geometry built in. While this wasn’t an issue with the 15” wheels and 60 series BFG’s, this became a major problem with the 275/35/18s. The best analogy is the Corvair and being unsafe at any speed. Rather than spontaneous oversteer, I was plagued with the car steering itself all over the road requiring the driver to hold the wheel in a death grip. The car looked cool and had tons of protouring goodies on it but could not be driven as such.

The lack of control issue stemmed from the alignment that was set on the car. With the setup on the car the most aggressive alignment that could be achieved was 0 camber, 1 degree of caster and 1/8” toe in. Having only 1 degree of positive caster worked for the F70-14 tire that came on the car, but doesn’t work for wide, sticky tires. After fumbling for a cost-effective solution, I decided to go with ridetech’s entire front suspension including coilovers, control arms, spindles, center link, tierods, and steering arms. The benefit to ridetech’s control arms is that they build 4 degrees of caster into the control arm to begin with and offer caster slugs that further move control arms toward the firewall for more caster. The ball joint in the lower control arm is also shifted forward to better center the wheel in the wheel well. There was a caveat to the ridetech spindles and Wilwood’s front big brakes. In my case, the spindle pin stuck out too far and the dust cover for the front hub would not go on. The solution to this was cutting of 3/16” off the spindle pin with a bandsaw. This was back in late 2018 and I’d imagine this is fixed now.

Time for the camo jokes

Keep in mind that the car got painted back in 2012 and at this point in summer of 2019, it showed. Between the rust popping up from wrongfully washing the car rather than detailing it, getting beat up from driving, and the physical damage caused by a cutoff wheel and mallet to fit the new wheels and tires, it was time to address the paint and body. While the car was a world different that it was when I started it back in 2009 and even 2013, the car looked like every other protouring car just with a different color.

To fix this, I began looking into vinyl wraps. After a couple of back and forth on the design for the wrap, I finalized the design and went with a jungle pattern camo with different gray scale colors and red. Before getting the car wrapped thought, the body still needed to be fixed where damaged, so I sanded the stripes down, fixed damage, and painted the afflicted areas with a silver that was close to the base coat. Once the body was in good shape, the car was taken to a wrap shop to get the vinyl put on. The wrap was finished mid-July of 2019.

2020 down time

Since Covid canceled all the shows for the 2020 year, I ended up making the most changes I’ve ever done in a year. Now it was time to try and make the car nice.

Cleanup the engine bay and subframe

With the Covid outbreak, almost all shows in the 2020 year were cancelled, and gave an opportune time to make some upgrades to the car. As it turned out, this was the biggest year for changes although most reside inside or under the car. The car was really starting to fit the vision that I had for it but was lacking in the interior. Ya can’t have a protouring car without a custom interior. In Spring of 2020, while prepping to upgrade the interior, I pulled the engine to do a better job of smoothing the fire wall. Come to find out, the distributor gear was getting knifed edged by the cam. At this point, I decided to just go through the engine, swap the cam out for a solid roller with more lift, and drop the compression a little to prepare for boost.

While the engine was out, I also pulled all the suspension off to completely repaint the subframe and powder coat all the suspension components red.

Time to customize the interior

The next step was to focus on updating the interior, and other various items I could customize to make this one of one. I decided on getting a DSE 4-point cage welded into the car but powdercoated it the same red as the suspension before doing so. DSE claims that the back glass must be removed to install the cage but I did it keeping the glass in. Further more, I didn’t want to just weld the cage in place and paint it as powdercoating the cage would look better. So we tacked the cage together to get all of the bar set, then cut the tacks off from the floor and pulled the cage out.

A one-piece headliner was installed where I deleted the courtesy light. The entire interior minus the headliner had to be pulled out however, and being that the cage penetrates the package tray, the panel I made for it had to be installed before the cage went in. Once I got the cage back from powdercoat, I had to use ratchet straps to “persuade” the cage to fit and not scratch anything.

I ended up selling my old seats and needed to get new frames. I got some seats from Braum as well as their 5-point harness to accompany the racing theme. I also bought raw material from Braum so that all the interior goods match. I then took the seat frames to an upholsterer to mimic the front seat design on the rear bench seat. The rear seat frames must be cut up to properly fit between the DSE mintubs, although the modification is not visible from the outside.

Next on the list was installing new door panels from TMI and window cranks/door pulls from Lokar. An issue came up with the TMI door panels, I originally ordered them for a 68 with red stitching but when they came in were for a 69 and had blue stitching; in short, wrong colors, and wrong door lock hole. This was a problem with the distributor and not directly with TMI. However, due to Covid at the time TMI said they were several months out before being able to get new door panels. I decided I would be better off just fixing the door panels myself rather than wait. I ripped all the vinyl off the fiber glass door panels, filled the wrong hole for the 69 door lock with fiberglass, and used vinyl from Braum to match the seats. While not my original plan, I am more than happy with how they turned out since the vinyl from Braum uses 1/8” foam, and with the carbon fiber insert, the door panels are soft and plush, and truly one of one, whereas the door panels originally came with no foam. One change that had to be made to work with the door panels was the switch from deluxe door pulls to standard door pulls as the pulling mechanism is fundamentally different. The standard door pull mechanism uses a stud like the window crank whereas the deluxe pull uses a handle that pulls in toward the person.

After getting the seats, cage, and door panels in, I concluded that the factory console doesn’t look good anymore and must be built. Building a custom console actually solved a few problems I had with the factory dash, like the cheap repo fake wood/metal trim, no provisions for a good double din radio, and ugly heat controls (non A/C car). I cut out the entire center section of the dash but left behind the metal underneath the ash tray for mounting.

The next step was getting cardboard to make a profile for what I wanted the new center console to look like. Once I got the shape I wanted, I then traced out the pattern on 1/2” MDF. To make both sides the same, I screwed the two together and sanded all around with an orbital sand so that the contour matches 100%. The next step was to build the walls of the center section of the console followed by the panels that mate to the dash. The panels for the gauges and the new double-din radio were made from 1/8” Masonite board. Once the console was mocked up, I realized I didn’t like the angle of the gauges relative to the driver. To fix it I got some floral foam to carve a rough shape of what I wanted then laid fiber glass along with filler to build the shape. The overall process was very time consuming, but I think the result speaks for itself.

Can’t leave the trunk alone either

I wanted to find some tricked subs to put in the trunk that have a cool magnet and basket design. I found out about Hutchinson subs who provide just that, and they build their components for audio competition, so they were surely able to handle my listening habits. I decided to go with two of their ETA-10”s and went though and calculated basic box dimensions based on air space and required port length. The subs are rated at 1500 W each which meant I should probably add bracing to the box so it doesn’t blow up. The problem is the subs required 3 cubic feet of air space and a 20 square inch port area with around a 36” port length. Internal bracing takes up air space and would require a larger box. All of this meant it would be very hard to get a box design that would fit between the tubs, not stick out past the opening on the decklid, and rest against the back seat. My solution to this was to use 2” aluminum angle around every edge of the box and run 1/2″ screws every 2”. I also wanted to see inside the box so I used 1/4″ acrylic that spans the entire front wall backed up 3/4” MDF to add strength. There is controversy on how thick acrylic wall should be but I haven’t had any issues with my design; although, the acrylic does flex a little under hard base notes. After I got the sub enclosure finished up, I then focused on building the trunk panels to finish off the interior of the car. I took a similar approach building the trunk panels as I did for the center console. However, all the panels had to play nicely with the sub enclosure. I used 1/2” MDF to build the panels and mount the amplifiers to the trunk floor. For the panel that rests against the valence, I did not want it to just be straight and boxy, this led me to kerfing the MDF to make it flex. To reinforce the piece, I filled the kerf with fiberglass and 18 gauge plate steel in the center.

One design challenge for the audio system was the heat that would be generated by the amplifiers and since the truck is a small, enclosed space, I had to get creative on cooling methods. The solution I came up with was using 10, 20 cfm computer cooling fans that are switched by a set of thermal contacts fastened to the heat sink on the 2500W amp. The fans turn on around 160 F and turn off around 120 F. The fans themselves are relatively loud if the engine is not running but can’t be heard once it is. To reduce clipping problems with the audio system, I used two red top optima batteries, one on each side of the trunk, and ran 1/0 from both batteries to the front of the car, where I then ran 6 AWG to the alternator.

Custom taillights

Once all of the panels were built, I cleaned up the wiring harness in the trunk by making it entirely plug and play with a dedicated ground. I also ended up designing a set of taillights for the car where I used Solidworks to create a CAD model of the taillight housing based off of dimensions I took with a tape measure. I took inspiration from the new challenger taillights when I created the set. Once the model was created, I 3D printed the housings and cut out the lenses from 3/8” acrylic. A couple hundred LEDs and several hours of soldering yielded a set of one off taillights somewhat resembling a 7-segment display.

Putting the car front of the car back together

Around the time I finished the trunk panels was the same time I got the engine refreshed. At the time I threw on a super victor intake to better match the cam, although the intake was temporary as I planned for a roots blower. With the engine in place I also spent time cleaning up the wiring. My goal was to make it such that the bare minimum amount of wires exposed. I created a blockoff plate and rerouted the engine bay harness to poke through the firewall under the fender on the passenger side and rebuilt the harness for the front of the car to be completely plug and play including a dedicated ground in the harness to so grounds to the frame would be required.

The next project was to update the look of the grille. I grabbed a dremel tool with a small cutoff wheel and removed all the slats from the factory grille. I then used some hexagon mesh material and created a basket that would serve as the new grill. Once the hexagon mesh was cut and bent into shape, I used stainless steel fasteners and finish washers to cleanly mate the mesh with the leftover plastic from the factory grille. Several people that have done similar things with the grille end up running an led light bar for turn signals and running lights. The led lights are usually placed in the lower valence opening. I wasn’t a fan of this so I decided to reuse the factory turn signal housings. Using the dremel and sandpaper I cleaned up the frayed bits of plastic from cutting the turn signals out of the grille. The factory turn signals are molded into the grille so I made brackets that reside inside the turn signals that allow them to bolt flush through the hexagon mesh.

By Fall of 2020 I had gotten the car put back together and was counting the days until the 192 blower from Blower Shop arrives.

Time for boooooost (a little of it)

There is a bit of controversy on camshaft design based on boost, some people think that a blower will need to see a wider lobe separation to “not let the boost leak out the exhaust valve”. The reality is for a roots blower, which is an air pump coupled to the driveshaft and moves a finite amount of air per rotation, if the engine makes good power naturally aspirated, then it will do so under boost with a roots blower. The blower just multiplies the torque production. The static compression of the engine combination is near 10:1 which limits boost to 5 psi on pump gas. While some might argue that it is pointless to run only 5 lbs, keep in mind that the pressure ratio is 19.7psi/14.7psi which means that the engine ought to produce 34% more power without the blower, neglecting any parasitic loss. The cam is a 246/250 duration at .050”, .608/600” lift on a 111 LSA with 4 degrees advanced. The  intake valve closes at 50 degrees ABDC which helps to lower the dynamic compression compared to static by more than a full point (calculate your static and dynamic compression here).

The Blower Shop 192 showed up late Fall of 2020 and provided its own challenges when trying to get it to work with the car. Usually, the drive belt and pulleys for the blower interfere with the accessory drive, and as such, manufacturers will usually say that the two don’t work together. The serpentine accessory drive I had on the car had been there for 7 years now and I was determined to keep it. The accessory drive from March uses a short water pump but is spaced off the block to yield long water pump dimensions. Blower shop has a hubcentric adapter that fits inside the bell of the crank pulley from March. I had to use a hand file to knock the register size down a bit so that it fit in nicely. The next interference came from the manifold pressure reference port that is tapped into the back of the manifold. Running the boost hose there required chopping the distributor hold down so that the hose and fitting would clear.

Another issue that appeared way on the tensioner arm that hangs off the blower snout. When pulled down the arm and idler pulley nut hit the bracket that holds the accessories. This was fixed with a sawzall an fine sandpaper. The position in the photo shows the arm hitting but this is pulled down past the point where the tensioner pulls against the belt. I needed gain about half an inch of additional downward movement to easily install and remove the blower belt. This modification could be skipped if the accessories are installed after the blower pulleys and belt, but that is unreasonable.

The last issue that appeared was the thermostat to radiator connection. One benefit to the Blower Shop 192 is that not only is it the largest of the minblowers, it also has the lowest height protrusion since they relocate the thermostat housing to mount parallel to the timing chain cover rather than in the convention location. My radiator is a single pass, 3 core radiator, and had the upper hose come from the driver side with the lower hose coming from the passenger side. Due to the specific mounting holes for the thermostat housing, and with my single pass radiator, a 3-piece swivel thermostat housing is required (which I already had) because the neck of the housing is on top of one of the mounting holes. Another solution would be to get a dual pass radiator with both the inlet and outlet on the passenger side.

Trying to get this to fit under a hood

Getting the blower to play nicely with the engine and accessories was just part one of design problems that manifested. My motivation to running a “miniblower” was because I wanted the blower to reside under the hood. That feat proved to be difficult. At a minimum, a 4” cowl hood is required, and a custom air intake must be fabricated to get everything to fit under the hood. My solution was to buy a bunch of 3” aluminum intake pipes and a dual inlet carb hat, followed by surgical cutting with a sawzall. I then fitted all the pieces together with ducktape. Since I relocated the batteries to the trunk, and deleted the washer resivor, I had plenty of room for a dual intake between the inner fenders and core support. Care had to be taken to ensure that the pipes didn’t hit the hood when the hood is closed, and that the air intake didn’t interfere with the throttle linkage.

Once I fitted all the parts together I took them to get tig welded, where I then sanded them down using 600 grit to give the air intake a brushed finish. After that I had them powder coated glossy clear. The hood that I ran was a fiberglass Harwood 4” cowl and it as well wasn’t just a bolt in solution. The inserts for the hood latch were nearly an inch off toward the firewall. I bought a billet hood latch from Summit and cut the mounting tabs off. I then made new tabs out of 1/4” aluminum and had them welded together. Doing this moved the latch forward an inch so that the hood would close properly. Shortly thereafter, I replaced the vacuum secondary 750 cfm Holley carb for a billet 850 cfm mechanical secondary carb from Prosystems. Given all of the aluminum under the hood now, I felt that now was not the time to cheap out on hood hinges and decklid hinges, so I got a set of each from Ringbrothers.

For piece of mind, I opted to build a methanol injection system to run when under boost to reduce the chances of catastrophic engine failure due to detonation or preignition. ProMeth has a spray bar that hides inside the air intake and is fitted with two, 10 gpm nozzles. I milled the mounting tabs of the spray bar so that it would fit inside the air intake, which was only 2” tall. The carb inlets came heavily massaged to increase air flow and as such provided additional clearance for the nozzles. I did not have to cut up the vents to fit the air cleaner.

I did not want to run a plastic methanol tank since they are ugly and would not go well with the theme of the car. This meant I needed to fabricate a tank out of stainless steel. This created a new set of design challenges which were the tank needed to be hidden, but easily accessible, and needed to have a reasonable amount of volume. I ended up using the dead space underneath the header panel and radiator closeout on the driver side as the location for the tank. Using this space was difficult because I needed to get a volume of one gallon so that the methanol tank and gas tank would run out a the same time. I then mounted the injection pump between the inner and outer fender on the driver side. Once I had my cardboard pieces made, I recreated the pieces in Solidworks to be cut with a laser then welded the tank together. I then used a 3.25” hole saw and cut out a big hole in the radiator closeout panel so that the filler-neck on the methanol tank could be accessed.

Completing the protouring look

I wanted to incorporate some basic aero to the car to better fit the protouring theme. In late Fall of 2020, I made a cardboard template of a wickerbill that was to be mounted to the rear spoiler. Once I got the design where I wanted it, I recreated the wickerbill in Solidworks and had a prototype laser cut from 1/8” aluminum. For mounting I used arp stainless 12-point 1/4-20 fasteners and accompanying wells nuts. Once the fitment was verified I then sent the wickerbill off to powdercoat. I later did the same process designing a set of sideskirts.

Fixing the little things

Now it became time to dot the t’s and cross the i’s. During the 2020 down time I planned on swapping the rubber power steering hoses to stainless braided Teflon hose. I had the pressure side made with special AN fittings but couldn’t slip the low pressure side on the low pressure tube on the power steering pump reservoir. I then scraped the project for a bit until I could come up with a plan on what to do. The motivation for using stainless hose rather than the rubber hose is a couple years back I had a power steering hose rupture on the pressure side because the header burned a hole through the hose.

In early 2021 I came up with the idea to cut off the slip-on tube on the pumps reservoir and replace it with an AN fitting.

More to come, maybe …